VPT Online: ReGeneration: Jeffrey Hollender






	HOME episodes host & producers teacher's guide feedback Interview Transcript Jeffrey Hollender Yes, Seventh Generation of Burlington, Vt., provides high-quality household cleaning products. But more importantly, they are demonstrating how social responsibility and environmental stewardship starts at the corporate level. We spoke with president and CEO Jeffrey Hollender. Interviewer: So, I am here with Jeffrey Hollender, from Seventh Generation Ecological Cleaning Products, and Mr. Hollender is the company's president and chief inspired protagonist. And every year you change the name. Jeff Hollender: Every year I change the name. Last year I was chief regeneration officer. Interviewer: It's a great coincidence that you chose the word "regeneration." JH: Yes. Interviewer: Tell me about that. JH: Well, having spent a lot of time thinking about sustainability, and realizing that, first of all, people don't understand what sustainability is; that people think of sustainability from an environmental perspective. They don't think about it systemically in the context that you have to deal with justice, you have to deal with equity, you have to deal with all of the parts of the system in order to have sustainability. But then you realize, well, we don't want to sustain what we have, because what we have is, not only is it not good enough, but, for many people, it's a total disaster! So, we need to regenerate, we need to re-create, we need to generate, and recover and repair and fix, not just sustain. Interviewer: Excellent. Excellent. My burden is the new "three R's" go from reduce, reuse, recycle, to repair, restore, regenerate. That's the new "three R's." JH: Yes. Interviewer: So where does ecological home-cleaning products fit into the big picture of sustainability, with ecological and social justice issues? How does all that tie in? JH: Well, you know, in some respects, the products we sell — I mean, we sell diapers, and we sell dish detergent — the products in some ways are simply a way to get into a conversation, the dialogue with people about these issues. You know, we gotta sell the products. The products keep us in business, but the products are really not an end in themselves. The products are really a way in which we can build relationships with people. We can have conversations with people, and we can begin to explore with them this whole idea of systems thinking and regeneration, to build a relationship where, first of all, we can learn from them, because it's not a one-way discussion or it wouldn't be a dialogue, but we can help, together, look for ways in which we can make the world a better place. We can really make a difference, and as much as the products are good, better than their competitive products, in and of themselves, they are not really going to address most of the challenges we face. There are kinds of things that we do that are in some ways more exciting. We have a program called "Change It," where we work with Greenpeace to bring a hundred college kids to Washington to be taught how to be more effective social change advocates. Now, our hope is that those hundred kids, over the course of their lives, touch thousands of people, and they in fact create systemic change in our society. So, there's a whole bunch of ways that we go about doing this. If we weren't selling dish liquid, we wouldn't be able to afford bringing these kids to Washington, because we pay for the whole training process, and in the training process, these kids went in front of the Capitol, formed a big arrow, and said, "Change for Global Warming starts here," and then delivered to every member of the House and Senate a letter saying, "If you want to get elected in the coming election, you want young people to vote for you, you gotta take a stance on global warming." So, the program was educational but it was designed to actually produce real change. Interviewer: So what you're describing is a very new and rather unorthodox business model. You're not concerning yourself with the typical things a businessman might concern himself with. And yet, you're proving that you can do well doing good. JH: Absolutely. I mean, if we are going to convince business that being responsible, being sustainable, being regenerative, really doing the "right thing" for their customers, the community, their employees, if we're going to get them interested in responsible business, we have to be a model that they want to emulate. And that means we gotta be successful financially! We have to show them that doing good is the best way to do well, and thus we need to grow — we've been growing at 30-40% for the past five years and we expect that growth to actually accelerate in the coming three years. We need to make money, we need to have a dominant position in the marketplace, so that people basically look at us and see, "Hey, these guys are doing something right. These guys have credibility. These guys are proving that you can succeed financially while you have a positive impact on the planet." Doing good doesn't obviate the need for that financial success. They have to go hand in hand, or no one will really pay attention to you. Interviewer: Thirty and forty percent annual growth, this is every CEO's dream. And yet, very often you hear, one of the conventional wisdoms is, well if you wanna sell a product, the last thing you wanna do is label it as being "green" or "ecological." That it's like the death nell for a product. Not the case with you at all! JH: Well, there is a kernel of truth in that, because there is a perception that "green" products are more expensive and don't work as well as traditional products. And quite frankly, it's overly simplistic to say "green." We need to understand what the consumer is looking for. And often the consumer is looking for something that benefits themselves first, and the environment, second. Now, you know from thinking systemically, that it's two sides of the same coin, but, if we're going to sell a cleaning product, we probably won't focus on telling you that it's not made from petroleum, and that we are using renewable resources. We're gonna tell you that if your family has someone with allergies or asthma, this product is less likely to cause them to have an asthma attack. So, that health benefit, the fact that the products are safer for you to use make us think "safer for you AND the environment," but we have to start with you. We have to start with identifying how these products benefit you and your family in the immediate, you know, in the moment. And we can then show them how that safety that benefits you is part of a system that's also beneficial for the environment. So I think when people say "green doesn't sell," it is true. If you're a mom and you're walking down the aisle of the supermarket, you're not looking to solve problems in the Brazilian rainforest! You're looking to get cereal and diapers and all the other stuff you need, so you have to interact with the consumer where they are in the moment. Get into that discussion, get into that dialogue, and then over time, you can explain to them, "you know, while this is good for your kids and your family and won't cause you an asthma attack, because it's made of renewable resources, because it's not made from petroleum, we don't have to go create havoc in Alaska and destroy the wilderness and clear-cut trees to extract oil, because we don't need to use oil to make laundry detergent. We can make it with vegetables instead of petroleum." Interviewer: I'm curious, you must look at these types of trends — what percentage of your customers currently are purchasing because they are interested in buying something that is more ecologically beneficial, and are you seeing a growth trend in that department, too? JH: Well, the hardcore environmental customer, who is the foundation of our business, I would say today is the minority of our customers. And that's true even if you look at a store like Whole Foods. You know, why are people shopping in Whole Foods? Well, only 10-15% of them are there for environmental reasons. Most of the people are there because they like the quality of the food, they like the diversity, the assortment, not because they care about the environment, not because they care about organic, not because they care about animal rights! Those people who were at the foundation of this trend ten years ago have become in the minority as more and more people have joined. You know, you think about organic milk. I mean, organic milk is usually the first organic product that families buy. Why do they buy it first? Because they've had a new child, they got a baby, and they wanna do the right thing for that child. The child drinks milk, they get into organic milk. They're not doing it because they care about the cow, they're not doing it because they care about the pesticides not getting into the land and the water system, they're doing it for the health benefit of their child. Interviewer: Nothing sells like self-interest. JH: Yes. I mean, I don't wanna say that's bad. If that's a way we can leverage the dialogue and the communication and the education, to expand and help people understand that all these things are connected, we wanna connect the dots. We wanna connect their health with the health of the planet, because they are inseperable. You can't take care of your health without taking care of the health of the planet. Interviewer: So, you said there were two sides to the equation, one is that people are concerned when they hear "green," that it's not as effective and it's more expensive. Let's address the cost thing in people's minds, or the reality of it. JH: You know, there are times where environmental products will cost more. Interviewer: Why? JH: You know, it depends on the product. I mean, let's look at our paper products. Well, the government spends over a billion dollars a year subsidizing the forest industry. Do they subsidize the recycling industry? No! They give a billion dollars to the forest industry! They artificially lower the price of virgin fiber. And they created distortion in the marketplace. So, you have those issues. You have issues of, you know, there are still organic crops that cost more to raise than traditional crops. You know, when we make our organic cotton tampons, the organic cotton costs more money. There is not a single factory in the United States that will make them. The only place we can make those tampons is in Europe. So we have the additional transportation costs of bringing the cotton and the finished product to the United States. So, sometimes those costs are unavoidable. The solution is full cost accounting. Now, if you had to pay the full cost for growing traditional cotton — you had to pay for the ground water that was polluted, the health impact of those pesticides on the farm workers — traditional cotton would cost twice as much as organic cotton, and our organic cotton tampons would cost half the price. But because of the externalities, because companies are allowed to have the public pay the cost of many of the products and services they sell, those costs don't show up in what you buy. And, what should be cheaper, because it's actually cheaper for the earth and our health, and therefore our pocketbook, appears to cost more money. Interviewer: I get it. Now, another aspect of your enterprise that's innovative is that you don't actually manufacture the products. JH: No. Interviewer: You are demanding that suppliers supply you with product that meets your demands for excellence and ecological benefits and health benefits. So tell me about that and also tell me about how your products are healthier? JH: Sure. We are designers of products. We are not manufacturers. So, we will design the laundry detergent or the dish detergent that is going to be optimal from a performance perspective, from a health perspective and an environmental perspective, and then we will find a manufacturer to make that product to our specifications. If we look at auto dish detergent, you know? A lot of people have automatic dishwashers. You go to the grocery store. You buy one off the shelf. It has three things in it that we think are problematic. First, it has 10-15% phosphates. Phosphates were taken out of laundry products, but they were never taken out of auto dish products. So you got phosphates. Secondly, they're using chlorine. That chlorine will be heated and volatized, and escape from your machine and pollute the air in your kitchen. So you are breathing chlorine fumes when you do your dishes. And third, the surfactin is made from petroleum rather than vegetable oil. So, our product offers an alternative: no phosphates, no chlorine, no petroleum ingredients, and it will work just as well as the leading brand. Now what's interesting is several states have tried to pass legislation eliminating the phosphates in auto dish detergent, and all the big companies come and say, "You can't do it, the product won't work." We've gone in and we've said, "Not true! Here's a product! It works, costs about the same, doesn't need phosphates!" And we have helped pass legislation now in several states banning phosphates in auto dish products. Interviewer: Wow. And phosphates were, or are, well known here in Vermont for example. That's what contributes to the algae blooms in the lake. JH: Oh yeah. It'll kill lakes! And you know, we have people that live on small lakes that buy our product specifically because they want to protect that lake. Interviewer: Huh. You mentioned that you are designers of products. And recently you had a very interesting workshop with the author of the book "Biomimicry." And you and your colleagues began to ask the question, "How can we design, and how will the house of the future clean itself?" Tell me about biomimicry, what it means for you, what you're getting out of it, and what you're starting to think about. JH: Sure. First of all, you know, we start with the premise of how little we know. We, and most people, know very little of what there is to know. And, in order to do the best we can do, you want to search out people who are more knowledgeable and more confident and have more experience than you do. So, Janine, who wrote "Biomimicry", has studied nature, has studied the way nature works. How does a leaf clean itself? How do things in nature function? And how can we learn from nature and apply that to products that we are selling? So, in the process to design more sustainable regenerative products, we enlisted Janine to come and teach our staff how to think this way — how to watch nature, how to observe nature so that we can learn from it. And then we will move on to try to apply some of this learning specifically to re-designing some of our cleaning products, both the formulations as well as the packaging. Interviewer: Let's keep going. Could you give me some ideas or some inspirations you got from Janine, something that struck you, that was new and that could be applied to your design process? Or how the thinking is changing? JH: Yeah. Well, you know, I think packaging is one of the biggest challenges, because our packaging stinks. Today, our packaging is made with plastic. Yeah, there's some recycled content in it, but it's used once and it's thrown away, so we're using a non-renewable resource to make a package that has a very short life span. Janine was looking and teaching us to observe how nature holds liquid. What are all the ways in which nature contains moisture and liquids? And is there anything that we can take from nature to naturally hold these liquids? You know, the first thing that we realized was the biggest problem we have is the fact that so much of the product is water. So, the first thing we need to do is get out the water, because we're having a much bigger container than we really need. Most cleaning products, I mean if you look at a window cleaner, you know, it is 95% or more water. So, someone's taking a little bit of cleaning fluid, dumping a lot of water, filling a bottle, and then trucking it all over the place. So, we are looking both at the way we design the product as well as the packaging. What is the solution? I have no idea. I wish I knew. Because the solution has to also work through the whole supply chain. I can come up with a great idea. I can say, you know, I wanna use the sack that a spider uses to hold liquid. But then I gotta find someone that's able to manufacture it. So, my expectation is this is probably a 2-3 year process to take these ideas, commercialize them and then actually work them into a product that will be on the shelves. Interviewer: And it seems self-evident, although apparently it's not for common sense cause it's not very commonplace, that if you find a way to reduce the packaging and the amount of volume, that you have less packaging, and less transport cost, and therefore higher profits! JH: Well, let's say lower costs, which translate into better value for the consumer, better profits for us, and a benefit for the environment. Because if you take the water out of the cleaning product, you can put more product on a truck, the truck can have less pollution, and the retailer can have more value on their shelves! Because they can sell the same product that takes up half the amount of space, and generate more sales with less shelf space. This is why this whole thinking that what's good for the environment is bad for business is so wrong! It's so misguided! I mean, today, Wal-Mart understands very clearly that doing the right thing for the environment has huge benefits for business. They just told the whole laundry detergent industry that all products next year have to be twice as concentrated as they are today. Now. What does that benefit? First of all, Wal-Mart can sell twice as much product in half as much shelf space. Transportation costs are cut in half. CO2 emissions are cut in half. And I'm sure they'll find a way that that will help their profits, lower the price to the consumer and the manufacturer will make more money. So, there is a win from every possible perspective you can look at. But, still, we as a society separate these notions and think that what's good for the environment, what's good for the planet, is not necessarily good for business, and until we understand that this system all works together, and everybody benefits, we won't move a lot of these businesses because they are holding a notion in their mind that's just fundamentally out-of-date and wrong! Interviewer: Well, to hear you speak it all sounds so obvious because, if it's true — and it is — that it's a win-win-win on the one hand, it means that by definition the converse is true, and it's lose-lose-lose and bad-bad-bad on the other hand. So if it's something so black-and-white, how is it that this mindset continues to prevail in your opinion? JH: Well, I think in some ways, I like Malcolm Gladwell's notion of "The Tipping Point." I think we're just getting close to that tipping point. One of the restraining factors is the government, because the government is still pushing in the wrong direction. Interviewer: And subsidizing. JH: If gas prices were like they are in Europe, $4-5 a gallon, we would see much more rapid change than we see today. But we subsidize the wrong things: we subsidize dangerous chemicals, we subsidize petroleum, and so, what is common sense is a lot harder because regulatory agencies in the United States are really tipping the scales in the wrong way. That's one challenge, and we have to educate consumers. Consumers in Europe are far more educated than they are in the United States. In Europe, over 90% of all consumers refuse to buy genetically modified food. In America? You know, they think it's OK. So, educating consumers that it's good for them, good for their pocketbooks, good for the environment, is a challenge! I don't become cynical, but what is common sense I think still has some significant challenges ahead. And, unfortunately we can't afford to continue down the path we're on. I just hate to see more hurricanes like Katrina. How many hurricanes like that do we need to have before people say, "Gee, we gotta do something about global warming." So, either we can get there with less pain or with more pain. We're gonna get there one way or another because we don't have any choice. I just hope we can take in the path that inflicts the least pain on us as people and on the planet, and all of the other creatures that are living here with us. Because our slowness to respond, our willingness to close our eyes to what is unfolding in front of us, will make life very unpleasant for a lot of people. And that's in some ways what we're fighting against. We're fighting against trying to create that awareness that leads the change so that this transition doesn't inflict the pain that it could inflict on much of the world. Interviewer: Jeffrey, what's the best part of what you do? What do you love? JH: Best part of what I do? I think getting to work with the people that I work with at Seventh Generation. There is nothing more fulfilling than to watch them grow, watch them develop, watch them have ideas that they never had before. You spend so much time at work, having the opportunity to work with the wonderful people I do every day, really makes me a very lucky person. But, secondly? You know, I am lucky that I can do what I love, make a great living at it, and look forward to coming to work every day. I mean, it's a blessing in a lot of ways that I can embody what it is I wanna see in the world. You can be successful financially, and you can do what you love. You don't have to separate those two. As a culture, we've taught people, gotta go work to make money, and then you have your activities outside work; you go put time into a non-profit or you donate money to a charity. We can't segregate these things. It just doesn't work. We have to take all these things together and in some ways, Seventh Generation is part charity, part NGO, part business, all rolled into one. And I'm lucky to be able to go work there every day. Interviewer: If you had one message to give to our viewers, what might it be? JH: Don't underestimate the impact that one person can have. Don't underestimate the power that you as an individual have. We, sadly, don't think often that we can make a difference. And it's so untrue. It is that belief that we can't make a difference that is the greatest of challenges that we have to overcome. Because if people believe they can make a difference, and they put that into action and do the things that they would like to do, do the things that would make a difference, whether that's voting, or whether that's supporting companies that are being responsible, whatever it is! If we can get people beyond the cynicism of their ineffectiveness, we can create all kinds of possibilities that you can't even dream of. Interviewer: Jeffrey Hollender, I listened to you all day. Very inspirational. Thank you very much. JH: My pleasure. My pleasure. Cameraperson: Where does the name Seventh Generation come from? JH: The name Seventh Generation comes from the Iriquoi Indians. It is sort of extracted from their bible. The statement is "in our every deliberation, we should consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations." And that is our name, that's our guiding light. When we do things, we can't think just about the present, we can't think about tomorrow, we can't think about the next quarter or even the year. We need to think long-term. We need to think about the implications of everything we do on the many generations that are yet to be born. Interviewer: Can't ask for better than that. Return to top